Curse

dr love · Oct 26, 2009, 06:22 PM // 18:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by shoyon456

Uh, from a non PvPer perspective...

Sealed Deck should take a hint from Costume Brawl. Each class gets the same skill bar, but you still have to have one of each class on the team. Then it will REALLY be about skill.

what, there's no skill involved in making builds and choosing attributes?

in my experience, this is the hardest pvp challenge yet. a few have been able to get impressive win streaks through excellent tactics, coordinating on vent, and thinking way 'outside the box on' builds.

most team i've been on, come up with a working idea for a build but eventually come upon a very strong counter. then we try to brainstorm ideas to beat that, which can be frustrating (g'damn blind!) but very interesting as well.

in my opinion this format will stay fresh for quite some time.

MMSDome · Oct 26, 2009, 06:41 PM // 18:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elu Arina

um... Every competitive game has a meta. Read up on Magic: The Gathering if you want to know something about balancing a game similar to Guild Wars.

What does this have to do with CA failing?

...What? TA was dead. The game is not balanced around 4v4. Almost every TA build was degenerate. Shove Spike anyone? HB had RR Day... While HB probably had more merit than TA, it suffered from many of the same problems. The title was meaningless and sins still dominated the meta even long after the arena was added. When you really look at it though, the real problem with both arenas was their staleness. It was not interesting to play either for very long unless maybe you had been playing said arena since its inception and, I assume, I could probably count those people on my hands and toes.

HB had RR day as a result of HB being removed. Deny it all you want but this RR shit wasn't around when people didn't have the knowledge of its removal. Only a few people actually used that method to farm the title.

I was pro HBer I would no.

lol

IrishX · Oct 26, 2009, 07:23 PM // 19:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divine Xan

This is something I cannot understand, how can people keep saying that EDA will have a 1/3rd of a chance of appearing any day.

Would you not be assuming that there is 3 'groups' of 5 dervish elites and one of those will crop up... you could have several combinations without EDA?

However, 3 days in a row.... does make you wonder how the system is designed... or whether we are all tremendously unlucky for this to happen?

15 derv elites/5 chosen each day=3
Therefore, there is a 1/3 chance for EDA to be chosen.
Probability is fun!

Divine Xan · Oct 26, 2009, 07:24 PM // 19:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by IrishX

15 derv elites/5 chosen each day=3
Therefore, there is a 1/3 chance for EDA to be chosen.
Probability is fun!

well I just did the math and worked out its a 1/3... just not like that (hence i deleted my post)

Jetdoc · Oct 26, 2009, 08:26 PM // 20:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by IrishX

15 derv elites/5 chosen each day=3
Therefore, there is a 1/3 chance for EDA to be chosen.
Probability is fun!

Personally, I think that the Nightfall classes should be restricted to 3 elites chosen per day. 20% would make it more likely that you wouldn't see an elite more than once per month.

Codex Guru · Oct 26, 2009, 08:50 PM // 20:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jonas The Keen

You have essentially made a duplicate of TA except instead of using thousands of skills we can use only 160, which change every day. Okay. it's a nice concept. But do you really think that it will have any more long term popularity than TA or HB had? The thing that made TA unpopular was the set up time when compared to RA. But even that wasn't discouraging to the loyal TA players, whom you royally RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOed in the ass by deleting TA. well, news flash: the set up time is even longer in Codex Arena than Team Arenas

In the first few months of the "Codex Arena", which you guys have called it, I'm sure players will go through the trouble of creating their own build and forming up groups, etc. But pretty soon the hassle of figuring out which skills that can be used that day and meshing them together in a way that has some kind of synergy will get laborious. In a few months, the Codex arena will gain only a cult following among a few dozen groups of players and will be as dead as Team Arena's or hero battles ever was.

In a way I understand where you're coming from. Building isn't the same as playing.

But, synergy is overrated. You're far more likely to eke out 5 wins if you run high damage if you're not a PvP guru. Knowing what damage is and how to keep dealing damage through shutdown (small things like hexbreaker, -40% blind, blocking stances) is the one and only thing you need to know to win 3-5 games with random people, lose one, win 3-5 games again. 25 games a different story, but if you want that many wins got to "go through the trouble" as you put it.

For example, most PvE do not understand the purpose of deep wound or hit points. You're not killing anyone without deep wound. Another example yesterday I ran lyssa dervish with daggers. Nobody was running that even very late into the night when the meta was "solved." But I was going on 3-5 game streaks with random people just because I had a sin, myself and a war. Ebon dust was no problem because the sin just camped the derv with shatter assault and expunge enchantments. Then I was getting hits for 100+ with my lyssa and making guild groups retreat so their monk could get back e.

It's only as laborious as you want it to be.

DreamWind · Oct 27, 2009, 04:16 AM // 04:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vazze

It was probably very simple to implement the "good old" TA system, but this needs to be addressed before it is too late. The HA point system would be MUCH better for CA than the current RA/TA system. RA/TA points could be tweaked, (instead of 5-10-15-20-, make it 3-6-9-12-, or something similar) but the HA version has more flexibility.

I agree with this. The point system just isn't set up for casual players at all, and casual players are what the format needs most. It is already dying compared to its population the first 1-2 days.

I Jonas I · Oct 27, 2009, 04:40 AM // 04:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jetdoc

Personally, I think that the Nightfall classes should be restricted to 3 elites chosen per day. 20% would make it more likely that you wouldn't see an elite more than once per month.

god people are terrible at math

Master Ketsu · Oct 27, 2009, 05:19 AM // 05:19

Restricting certain professions with an OP skill in them is a bad Idea.

Banning the OP skill entirely from Codex? Considering that nature of Codex, outright skill banning would not be such a terrible idea.

Beren985 · Oct 27, 2009, 12:13 PM // 12:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jetdoc

Personally, I think that the Nightfall classes should be restricted to 3 elites chosen per day. 20% would make it more likely that you wouldn't see an elite more than once per month.

Assuming a month of 5 days? xD

Personally I'd tone the number down to 2 elites for Derv/Para and 4 for Sin/Rit, so the chances of each elite appearing would be simmilar to the elites for the core classes, which are around 1/7. Don't think a change of non-elite skill number is needed tho, since those are hardly game-breaking.

ogre_jd · Oct 27, 2009, 01:39 PM // 13:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

I agree with this. The point system just isn't set up for casual players at all, and casual players are what the format needs most. It is already dying compared to its population the first 1-2 days.

Casual players won't care about the title. They'll see the Codex Arena as an easily reached addition to their PvP experience for when they don't feel like going to the Random Arena (or to AB, FA or JQ, for that matter), be it for Balthazar faction or just for casual PvP.

Boba Chick · Oct 27, 2009, 06:46 PM // 18:46

you guys didnt really point out the real reason why it is failure

here is what i think the ultimate failure of this format is:

*downgrading game play*

you cant even play a build to play this format, the whole idea of getting a bunch of random skill with no synergy is just not GW. thats like WOW pvp or something else, it is just not fun at all

its like, playing basketball with only 1 hand, or soccer with 1 leg. or the best comparison - playing any poker game with only face cards.

u can always argue with my comparisons, but the thing is, using a build (a real build) promotes higher skillful play on the opposite team, the other team is required to respond to a higher synergy build by playing better or changing build. then when both teams are using similar builds, whichever with more skills will win. but this skill level is greater or equal to the skill level when all teams are not playing a build. similar to the case playing sports with 1 hand and blah blah. the winning team only shows a better skill at using 1 hand

anet needs to know a little game theory, learn some mechanism design. all current staffs working for gw are ALL pvers, from what i see. at least someone has to be a pvper

lord of all tyria · Oct 27, 2009, 07:34 PM // 19:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boba Chick

you guys didnt really point out the real reason why it is failure

here is what i think the ultimate failure of this format is:

*downgrading game play*

you cant even play a build to play this format, the whole idea of getting a bunch of random skill with no synergy is just not GW. thats like WOW pvp or something else, it is just not fun at all

its like, playing basketball with only 1 hand, or soccer with 1 leg. or the best comparison - playing any poker game with only face cards.

u can always argue with my comparisons, but the thing is, using a build (a real build) promotes higher skillful play on the opposite team, the other team is required to respond to a higher synergy build by playing better or changing build. then when both teams are using similar builds, whichever with more skills will win. but this skill level is greater or equal to the skill level when all teams are not playing a build. similar to the case playing sports with 1 hand and blah blah. the winning team only shows a better skill at using 1 hand

anet needs to know a little game theory, learn some mechanism design. all current staffs working for gw are ALL pvers, from what i see. at least someone has to be a pvper

Spotting synergy in a limited skill pool and maximising the effectiveness of that synergy is more skilful than "lol i add more hexes and team win more"

Greedy Gus · Oct 27, 2009, 07:37 PM // 19:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boba Chick

anet needs to know a little game theory, learn some mechanism design. all current staffs working for gw are ALL pvers, from what i see. at least someone has to be a pvper

So far with SD, the relatively better pvp players are the ones with the more positive feedback, so I don't know where you're going with this. It's easy for everyone's criticism to be labeling what they don't like as products of pve carebear devs/players, but you just look foolish when the best players like it.

Master Fuhon · Oct 27, 2009, 10:02 PM // 22:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boba Chick

winning team only shows a better skill at using 1 hand

The winning team shows a better skill at using every part of the mind and body minus the subtracted part. If the strategy aspect of the game has been seeded so that certain skills provide no advantage, only then would this statement apply.

People play basketball in hand casts all the time. A hand injury deters grip but doesn't make basketball unplayable as a whole. In a full court game, the primary objective is for an offense to create distance between objects (running, jumping, passing). The primary objective of a defense is to reduce distance between objects (deny isolation, take up space). A majority of a basketball game isn't even played with hands at all. The primary ballhandler would be most affected by this change; passing, shooting, and defending can still be done as long as there is an arm stub there to help guide the ball.

The soccer analogy isn't great either, one-legged people would just play by crabwalking to overcome the fact that soccer involves shooting and passing with the same body parts that create the most movement.

But what I really disagree with here is the seemingly absolute belief that the concept of limiting players abilities doesn't work in game theory. I wouldn't even consider it strategy if it didn't limit players in some way to make them rely on multiple skills instead of getting by with a single ability. Even if the people who practice it screw it up, it doesn't imply that the theory itself is bad.

A-net itself had previously chosen to move away from most aspects of strategy in the solo farming aspect; solo farming is about learning the most efficient efficient action sequence, and using less to get back more. So in that sense, the major limitation that A-net has designed as a strategy component is a constraint on time.

urania · Oct 28, 2009, 12:49 AM // 00:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Ketsu

Restricting certain professions with an OP skill in them is a bad Idea.

Banning the OP skill entirely from Codex? Considering that nature of Codex, outright skill banning would not be such a terrible idea.

cuz Anet will so eagerly listen/care about what we think is OP and whatnot, yes.

emuking · Oct 28, 2009, 12:25 PM // 12:25

codex is fine, chillax... you get to play something new every 24 hours if u play everyday. The only reason ppl all have the same build is b/c usually people doing something like this...
:Assuming you are a pvper:

1. check out the new skills and look for instantly good skills that you know are good b/c they own in other pvp formats (Wounding strike eg.)

2. talk in your guild/alliance chat and ping build u make up and say "look at this" while ur friend says "look at mine" and in your head you think "wow his is way better than mine, why didnt i think of that...? im dumb"

3. put ur friends build to the test, figure out if ur gonna face melee mostly or casters mostly and decide how u can survive

4. you are now 2/4 (one damg dealer for sure + monk) and you are trying to see what we need on the other two chars to stop whatever you are most likey to face. so you spend 5 minutes and build sometimes decent (in your mind cuz u havent entered yet!)

now u enter and get like... 3 wins before facing a build that owns urs (usually the monk and damg are the same but the midline is a lil different SO YOU COPY THEM

and there is your "problem" (not a problem for me idc)

you can enter, die, reenter with a totally new build and not face any consequences. Its not like whatever you nd your teammates 1st decide to enter the arena with matters becas you have the ability to change it afterwards if you lose (if you didnt then people would spend a lot more time and be much more secretive with their builds)

People can spend 15 minutes making decents builds and figuring out what you will face most likely (which is good) and then u instantly die, fix ur build and enter again. everyone is running the same build b/c we all think the same way after 4 years of pvping. PvErs just get stomped and the process i listed above only applies to the few real pvpers left in this game; but no one cares. I've lost interest in typing so im going to stop now. OP ur dumb

I Jonas I · Oct 29, 2009, 04:29 AM // 04:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by emuking

OP ur dumb

I like how you add that last bit at the end after basically proving my point that picking the right skills (which is indeed the only thing that separates Codex Arena from TA) takes no skill. If it is true that picking skills in codex arena is not a challenge, then TA takes exponentially more skill than Codex arena.

To those of you that said that TA had the same "lame" meta for 2 years, and that whoever takes more hexes wins, or all of that BS: maybe it is just you that refused to think outside the box?

WarriorOSS · Oct 29, 2009, 05:52 PM // 17:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jonas The Keen

I like how you add that last bit at the end after basically proving my point that picking the right skills (which is indeed the only thing that separates Codex Arena from TA) takes no skill. If it is true that picking skills in codex arena is not a challenge, then TA takes exponentially more skill than Codex arena.[/URL]

Yeah but...
One must take into account that players like emuking spend their whole life in Guild Wars. Normal and healthy players don' t do so and therefore can lose more.

Greedy Gus · Oct 29, 2009, 06:23 PM // 18:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jonas The Keen

I like how you add that last bit at the end after basically proving my point that picking the right skills (which is indeed the only thing that separates Codex Arena from TA) takes no skill. If it is true that picking skills in codex arena is not a challenge, then TA takes exponentially more skill than Codex arena.

To those of you that said that TA had the same "lame" meta for 2 years, and that whoever takes more hexes wins, or all of that BS: maybe it is just you that refused to think outside the box?

Was about to point out that what you're missing is that TA often boiled down to r/p/s simply because every title-farmer group overloaded in some particular direction, and over the course of 10-20 matches you'd have to face each different type of overload (not balanced for 4v4 either). That is a huge difference from CA, where limited and weaker skill selection makes build less important than player skill. But then you proved that point yourself, backslapping that an overload physical build could also be run alongside overload hex builds.